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why not just print more money?

 

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why not just print more money? Can't Post

First off, hello... I'm new to the forum. I signed up because we are having this specific argument at work, and I'm wondering if anyone here can provide some educated insight.

So, the argument is this... instead of taxing our income, why doesn't the government just print more money to pay for what it needs? We keep our whole income, and the hypothesis is that it equals out in the end. The value of the dollar would go down over time, but the income would go up.

Now, intuitively that just seems wrong to me. It feels like this would have a non-linear effect of massively devaluing the currency such that it would soon be worth nearly nothing. I don't know how to prove this one way or the other though, hence my posting here.

Anyone have an informed opinion on this?

pshenk
New User

Apr 16, 2007, 9:55 PM

Post #1 of 15 (4501 views)

Re: [pshenk] why not just print more money? [In reply to] Can't Post

You are right, your coworkers don't know anything about economics :P Look up more informatino on purchasing power parity for some theoretical insights.


Think about it, if you gave a million bucks to everybody would that make anybody better off? Would everyone run to the store and buy out all the goods? Well they wouldn't you know, the government can't just give money from thin air if there is nothing to support it. Giving one million to everybody would mean everyone is in the same position (real position) they were before. Prices would increase to reflect the new devaluation of the dollar. Furthermore, you would see all investment (foreign) pull out in a hurry since their holdings of your currency are all of a sudden worthless. If there is nobody buying up your dollars (or selling them for that matter) the money supply increases even more and devaluation keeps going down. So what does the government try to do? They increase interest rates so people will buy back some more dollars, but it doesn't really matter anymore because you just printed out of thin air............ The government gets it's money from taxes or investments (bonds). You can't just print money since the actual money is only paper, there has to be something to support it.

econmod
Broker / Moderator

Apr 17, 2007, 12:38 AM

Post #2 of 15 (4485 views)

Re: [econmod] why not just print more money? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, that helps a lot. Let me see if I understand completely.... is the *only* issue that the dollar is being devalued in investments (both foreign and domestic)? Say if there were no foreign investments to complicate things, and we were dealing with some closed domestic economy... is it possible (mathematically), that the increase in income could theoretically keep up with the inflation. Say, if the government would print only *exactly* the amount of money that it is missing out on, since it's not collecting taxes... would our increase in spending money and the corresponding devaluation of the dollar cancel each other out (at least).

For example, the price of bonds goes up, but we have more to spend on those bonds?


pshenk
New User

Apr 17, 2007, 2:24 AM

Post #3 of 15 (4482 views)

Re: [pshenk] why not just print more money? [In reply to] Can't Post

It simple doesn't work that way (post-war Germany is an example of massive hyper-inflation. They increased and printed so fast the economy could not adjust and people just stopped accepting the money as currency.)

You can't just print and add to income, goods will increase by the same price. You adjust your wage based on inflation, not the other way around. You say, "inflation was 3% this year so pay me more to cover that."

the ONLY issue isn't the foreign exchange but it's a big one. The government can't print money that it needs because that's not responsible in a developed economy. You need people to ensure those decisions aren't made :P This doesn't meant they don't print money but it's done with a number of considerations in mind. Spending would not increase because inflation would increase as well, nobody is better off.

When the price of bonds goes up that means the interest rates are going up meaning you get a better return in the end so you do get something.

econmod
Broker / Moderator

Apr 17, 2007, 11:50 AM

Post #4 of 15 (4479 views)

Re: [pshenk] why not just print more money? [In reply to] Can't Post

First because the rights to "print money" has been given up by Congress to the Bankers in 1913 with the Federal Reserve Act
so that Gov must ask the Bankers if they may wish to do so. Bankers are pleased to do so as long as we pay them interests with our taxes (or taxes of our children).

Second, as a consequence of the first, if ever a President tries to take back the Power of Printing Money, there is some Probability that he will be shot as History showed with President Lincoln and less famously with President Kennedy who tries to repel Federal Reserve with Executive Order 11100

$2 and $5 "Kennedy dollars" actually circulated (picture below) but after Kennedy was burried, President Johnson ordered them to be retired:




(This post was edited by galbraithisback on May 8, 2007, 4:03 AM)

galbraithisback
Teller

May 8, 2007, 4:00 AM

Post #5 of 15 (4358 views)

Re: [galbraithisback] why not just print more money? [In reply to] Can't Post

Feds can get more money by asking the banks like you said, however, that does not necessarily involve printing more. What you describe is a clearing of bank reserves. But thanks for the rest of the info, and welcome to the board!

econmod
Broker / Moderator

May 8, 2007, 11:13 AM

Post #6 of 15 (4346 views)

Re: [pshenk] why not just print more money? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Say, if the government would print only *exactly* the amount of money that it is missing out on, since it's not collecting taxes... would our increase in spending money and the corresponding devaluation of the dollar cancel each other out (at least).

For example, the price of bonds goes up, but we have more to spend on those bonds?



I think the government printing exactly the amount of money that it needs to pay for its operation is impossible. As soon as it starts trying, the nominal price would start to go up and it'd be chasing the price up as it kept printing--meanwhile, all of our prices would also go up, and we'd feel it hard as the money took time to come around to the public sector. And, by then, the currency would be so devalued we probably wouldn't want it anymore. Are you trying to make us convert to the Euro? Tongue

Though, this is a tactic used by smaller countries when they try to cover their internal debts. The result is always bad.
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http://jdvn100.googlepages.com/crossroads

Jdvn1
Banker

May 8, 2007, 4:44 PM

Post #7 of 15 (4340 views)

Re: [Jdvn1] why not just print more money? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Say, if the government would print only *exactly* the amount of money that it is missing out on, since it's not collecting taxes... would our increase in spending money and the corresponding devaluation of the dollar cancel each other out (at least).

For example, the price of bonds goes up, but we have more to spend on those bonds?




I think the government printing exactly the amount of money that it needs to pay for its operation is impossible. As soon as it starts trying, the nominal price would start to go up and it'd be chasing the price up as it kept printing--meanwhile, all of our prices would also go up, and we'd feel it hard as the money took time to come around to the public sector. And, by then, the currency would be so devalued we probably wouldn't want it anymore. Are you trying to make us convert to the Euro? Tongue

Though, this is a tactic used by smaller countries when they try to cover their internal debts. The result is always bad.




The appeal to print more money is sometimes greate, especially in underdeveloped countries (economies). It doesn't happen as often as people think. Reserves from the bank are tapped rather than printing.

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Mod
Webmaster / Moderator

May 8, 2007, 4:47 PM

Post #8 of 15 (4338 views)

Re: [Mod] why not just print more money? [In reply to] Can't Post

It is a fairly rare occurrence nowadays, but I was under the understanding that it used to happen quite a bit more.

Not that I'm sure, as I haven't looked into it, but I thought it tended to happen with more militaristic nations as they tried to fund their army.
______________
Talk hard.
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Jdvn1
Banker

May 8, 2007, 5:15 PM

Post #9 of 15 (4331 views)

Re: [econmod] why not just print more money? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Feds can get more money by asking the banks like you said, however, that does not necessarily involve printing more. What you describe is a clearing of bank reserves. But thanks for the rest of the info, and welcome to the board!



Hi, I'm new.

But I have to clear up something here. The Fed has no reserves, it creates money as debt. That's why the government has to go into debt in the first place. The government "sells" T-Bonds to the Fed for "money" the Fed creates, then the Fed either keeps the bonds or auctions them off to the primary dealers. But it doesn't have to be this way.
According to the Constitution:
Article I Section 8
Congress shall have the power:
To coin money, regulate the value thereof

The Fed was created to allow private banks to create our money and then loan it back to our government at interest. The income tax was created so that we have to pay that interest back to the banks.
There is no reason that the US government can't issue legal tender money without having to pay interest, except for the treasonous Federal Reserve Act of 1913. It has in the past, and an act of Congress can allow it to again.

By the way, "printing" is an archaic notion. 99% of money these days is created through making entries in electronic ledgers, i.e. computer files, as new "assets" in commercial bank accounts as a result of loans to businesses and consumers.

Nice forum, I'm looking forward to some interesting discussion.

joewp
Teller

May 8, 2007, 11:54 PM

Post #10 of 15 (4324 views)

Re: [joewp] why not just print more money? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is all very interesting... I never knew how the federal reserve came about, or what precisely it's purpose was. So, the fed is a federal institution yes? You say that the banks control the money (and they control the interest rate also, yes?), has it ever NOT created more currency when congress asks? How often does this happen, if ever?

pshenk
New User

May 9, 2007, 4:16 AM

Post #11 of 15 (4319 views)

Re: [pshenk] why not just print more money? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This is all very interesting... I never knew how the federal reserve came about, or what precisely it's purpose was. So, the fed is a federal institution yes? You say that the banks control the money (and they control the interest rate also, yes?), has it ever NOT created more currency when congress asks? How often does this happen, if ever?




It's purpose is to fleece the American people by having private bankers create the money instead of the government doing it. It's what they call a "quasi-governmental" agency, although it is owned by the member banks(e.g. Citibank, Chase, Bank of America, etc). The actual interest rate we pay is set by supply and demand, basically from the Treasury auctions and the bond market, although the Fed tries to influence it by setting the various rates it controls. Congress simply spends more than it gets in taxes and the money is created by the Fed buying T bills, so no. Congress does set a limit on how much debt it can create, but they frequently raise it. Right now it's $9 trillion. Shocked
Congress raises its own credit limit

But the real money creation happens at the commercial banks. From the New York Fed's website:

Quote
Reserve requirements affect the potential of the banking system to create transaction deposits. If the reserve requirement is 10%, for example, a bank that receives a $100 deposit may lend out $90 of that deposit. If the borrower then writes a check to someone who deposits the $90, the bank receiving that deposit can lend out $81. As the process continues, the banking system can expand the initial deposit of $100 into a maximum of $1,000 of money ($100+$90+81+$72.90+...=$1,000). In contrast, with a 20% reserve requirement, the banking system would be able to expand the initial $100 deposit into a maximum of $500 ($100+$80+$64+$51.20+...=$500). Thus, higher reserve requirements should result in reduced money creation and, in turn, in reduced economic activity.

In practice, the connection between reserve requirements and money creation is not nearly as strong as the exercise above would suggest. Reserve requirements apply only to transaction accounts, which are components of M1, a narrowly defined measure of money. Deposits that are components of M2 and M3 (but not M1), such as savings accounts and time deposits, have no reserve requirements and therefore can expand without regard to reserve levels.
New York Federal Reserve Bank




So really, money is created every time a loan is made and destroyed whenever a loan is paid back. 95% of money works this way, the government and the Fed have only a little influence on it.

Of course, we the people of the United States could petition our Congress to return to a system where the money is created by government permanently and without interest, but we the people don't have enough money to buy our Congress back from the banks. Unsure

It's really quite a racket, creating money out of thin air then charging interest on it.
There's a cute little video on the whole process here: Money As Debt


(This post was edited by joewp on May 9, 2007, 3:44 PM)

joewp
Teller

May 9, 2007, 12:28 PM

Post #12 of 15 (4308 views)

Re: [pshenk] why not just print more money? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This is all very interesting... I never knew how the federal reserve came about, or what precisely it's purpose was. So, the fed is a federal institution yes? You say that the banks control the money (and they control the interest rate also, yes?), has it ever NOT created more currency when congress asks? How often does this happen, if ever?




The FED dictates the interest rate, banks DO NOT.

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Barry
Mr. Do It All


May 9, 2007, 10:18 PM

Post #13 of 15 (4287 views)

Re: [Barry] why not just print more money? [In reply to] Can't Post

Two posts that are related to this thread:

http://www.discusseconomics.com/...nks-get-their-money/

and

http://www.discusseconomics.com/...the-money-come-from/

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Mod
Webmaster / Moderator

Oct 23, 2008, 12:43 AM

Post #14 of 15 (1498 views)

Re: [econmod] why not just print more money? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, all!

First post - but just wanted to offer Zimbabwe as another example of a country trying to print itself out of a financial crisis. The central bank has become caught in a hyper-inflationary spiral, and it just can't print money fast enough to keep up with rising prices.

What happens is that as the local currency becomes practically worthless, the economy becomes reliant on foreign exchange (such as South African dollars sent as remittances from relatives working in SA). People also revert to bartering for goods (I'll paint your house if you look after my kids over the weekend).

I wonder if a Zimbabwean dollar is actually worth less at the moment than the paper it's printed on. It would be interesting to know if merely printing the seal of the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe onto some paper ends up massively devaluing that sheet of paper.

Joe Litobarski
New User

Jan 3, 2009, 4:02 AM

Post #15 of 15 (55 views)

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